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Admin Posts: 833
Here my question for the group, does a spell caster always know what spells he has active?
And would a cleric know if his aura is down.
I was looking for some good resources, to illuminate this topic.
See if a rouge can dispel a caster spell with a strike would they know it happened?
The same would be true of a dispel trap..there are allot of spell that are duration based non- dismissive so would you know it still up if someone brought that down, and what would be the distance … see it turn the spells into an alarm device which I don’t think was intended…
What do you all think …
Post last edited May 12th 2014
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Master Poster Posts: 675
is concetration required? I would think those he would definately know of. If a wizards tosses up a wall of force does he know the moment the enemy brought it down. I dont think he does like a fire and forget.
hmmmm interesting I know what im reading tonight :)
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Master Poster Posts: 349
This is from the core rule book in the magic section:
Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.
This implies that creatures can notice spell effects, or the sudden removal thereof, if the spell has an obvious physical effect, which depends on the spell description. Many spells currently lack this level of description. A Fire Shield spell could be noticed because it creates flames. Others would be noticible--Endure Elements being dispelled when it's hot or cold, but not necessarily when it's nice out. Bull Strength--do you notice you are weaker? I would say these would allow a perception check (don't know what the DC would be.) Protection from Evil creates a magical barrier, but it doesn't say whether it's visible or not. Without a physical effect, I don't know that one would passively know if it were dispelled. Mage Armor creates an invisible but tangible field of force--so you could not see it, but because it is tangible, the target creature could likely feel it.
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Admin Posts: 833
So I think I have to visit this before the next campaign fires off.
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Active Poster Posts: 54
While I can certainly agree with Hal's proposal by how the rules are written, I have some additional interpretations I would add on.
The way I see it, applying a spell is similar to tying someone with a piece of rope. If I work to tie the rope, it is very clear whether it works or not as I am tying it. Either the rope falls/stays in my hand, or the rope holds the person. However, Once I've let go of the rope, I have no way of knowing if it is still tied unless I can visibly see the rope. Granted, many spells do link people together, or retain a bond with the spellcaster. Spells with (D) next to the duration are Dismissal, for example, and thus still have to have some sort of small connection to the caster himself. For the sake of the earlier example, this may be one end of the rope. But dismissing a spell must be done within the spells range, and thus that would be the range where the caster would know if his spell was dispelled. This would certainly make sense with Items or Permanent magic effects that crafters create as well, because otherwise a professional item crafter would be constantly aware of the status of all his magic items and whether they were dispelled or not. I imagine that'd be annoying.
For your question on a Rogues dispel-strike I agree with Hal in that it depends on the spell. Surely a caster would notice Endure Elements being Dispelled if it was in a blizzard, or his arcane sight spell going down, but if it was a Resistance spell? How would someone notice "I'm not as good at resisting diseases?" when typical people don't even know that; they just learn by experience.
I think the more important question are Auras. A Paladins aura of Resolve, as an example, is immunity to Charms. Once again, how does someone know if they are immune to charms? It's an intangible invisible aura that can not be suppressed or dismissed, so the argument could be made that nobody knows whether or not the effect is active. However, a similar argument could be made that it is his connection to his deity that he feels, in a similar way a spellcaster would feel a connection to a spell he could dismiss. I could see it going either way, but regardless, he would know it was down if he was hit by a charm spell (assuming it didn't block his memory or anything). I would say it's an absolute NO if a cleric knows that his aura of Good/Evil/Law/Chaos was down, however, because that can specifically be seen with a Detect Alignment spell. This is an interesting question, and I do hope we get it resolved...
Post last edited May 15th 2014
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Active Poster Posts: 88
I'm going to agree with Gman, any spell with a (D) usually involves an act of willpower on the casters behalf. So like with a Wall of Force there is no visible effect except when something bounces off it. But because a Wizard can dismiss the spell at will he retains a connection to the spell, a slight pressure in his mind. Now an interesting question is what happens when you cast permanency on it. Does the Wizard still maintain the ability to dismiss it? If he does then he would always know it was there, there would be less pressure than a non permanent one but it would be retained in the back of his mind. If he can no longer dismiss it after permanency then his connection would be severed with the spell and would no longer know if it is active or not.
Fire and forget spells with no visual or physical effects that cannot be dismissed at will would be the only spells that a caster would have no active or passive connection with, and therefore would not be aware of their dismissal.
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Master Poster Posts: 349
(D) Dismissible: If the duration line ends with “(D),” you can dismiss the spell at will. You must be within range of the spell's effect and must speak words of dismissal, which are usually a modified form of the spell's verbal component. If the spell has no verbal component, you can dismiss the effect with a gesture. Dismissing a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
A spell that depends on concentration is dismissible by its very nature, and dismissing it does not take an action, since all you have to do to end the spell is to stop concentrating on your turn.
There is nothing explicit in the rules that there is a continuing connection between caster and dismissible spell. With a quick perusal through 1st level wizard spells, one discovers that over 50% of the non-instantaneous or concentration spells are dismissible. That could be a lot of connections. While it is fine to interpret dismissible spells as somehow being connected to the caster, it could equally be argued that due to the caster's familiarity with the spell and his/her specific style of casting (similar to a wizard's spell book), he/she can dispel it (it takes a standard action) without resort to a Dispel Magic spell. I guess I prefer the second interpretation. It avoids having to interpret the "rope" connection, whether it can be detected and followed, etc. Of course, if my caster can determine the exact time his summoned monster disappears due to loss of the dismissible connection, that would be a decent detection tool for exploring beyond-sight tunnels, etc.
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Active Poster Posts: 54
Haha, I hadn't thought of it that way Hal, that's a good point!! Your second interpretation does make a lot of sense too...
Rokyr, I would assume either A: The link runs out at the range of the spell, so a permanency on it wouldn't be even a "little pressure" unless it was in range, or B: A part of the permanency spell (likely the material component needed specifically for what is becoming permanent) is actually used to disconnect the spell from the caster and have it "fueling itself" on it's own power, essentially "tying off" the connection.
Either way once again, this is a very interesting question.... Hm...
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Active Poster Posts: 88
Can a Cleric's aura be dispelled? They are supernatural abilities, not active spell effects. Also since it take a standard action to activate an aura I would think that it takes minimal effort to maintain one, so I think a Cleric would notice if his aura isn't present.
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Active Poster Posts: 54
Well, a clerics Aura of Good Can't be suppressed or activated at the whim of the cleric. It's just naturally there because of his class and always on. Same with a paladins Aura of Resolve.
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Master Poster Posts: 349
Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities.
The auras I have noticed (paladin aura, Destruction domain aura) are supernatural abilities and are not subject to dispel. They are shut down while in an anti-magic area. Some auras are continuous, like a paladin's auras. Some are duration based, like the Destruction domain. None really give a description whether the aura is noticeable or not. So, if a destruction cleric activated the aura, would he be able to tell if it activated, or not (if within an anti-magic area)? Would a spell-caster automatically know and distinguish that a spell failed due to anti-magic vs. counterspell vs. spell resistance vs. some other reason the desired effect did not occur? Is that a spellcraft check? Is it a perception check to notice something has changed (auras, etc. going down)? In any case, it's not really an issue for auras with regard to a dispel trap or dispelling strike type of ability.
One could argue that a lack of description implies no noticeable sign of the aura exists (absent detection, etc.). The other option is that there is a noticeable effect similar to the Neverwinter Nights game spell effects. This however, would likely entail penalties to stealth, disguise, and other aspects based on the circumstances. The Pathfinder rules provide mechanics and percentages. The fact that auras do not impose these penalties implies that they do not generate noticeable effects absent conditions when the auras should have an effect. Even then, the auras aren't described as making a flash of light. Again, this is subject to interpretation, homebrew rules, and DM fiat. For example,spells like Resurrection don't provide any noticeable effect according to the spell description (other than bringing the target back to life), but in play we have been playing that there is a tremendous visual effect.
So, for auras and duration spells, the first question is: do they create a noticeable effect, such as orbiting runes of power, changes to appearance (could be assumed for Barkskin, but not in the description). I don't think there is an explanation in the rules about that (and again, most spells don't give a flavor description).
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Admin Posts: 833
I think lack of a description is a description. so it has no noticeable component... and only has and effect when described by the books, assuming an effect exist is a player want.
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Active Poster Posts: 88
I think Paizo didn't include descriptions of spell effects in order to leave it up to the players. Magic missile is only described as a "Missile of magical energy" What that magical energy looks like is up to the players. an aura could have a bright glow, or could project emotions, or even put a visual effect on those it is affecting.
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Admin Posts: 833
Abjuration
Abjurations are protective spells. They create physical or magical barriers, negate magical or physical abilities, harm trespassers, or even banish the subject of the spell to another plane of existence.
If one abjuration spell is active within 10 feet of another for 24 hours or more, the magical fields interfere with each other and create barely visible energy fluctuations. The DC to find such spells with the Perception skill drops by 4.
If an abjuration creates a barrier that keeps certain types of creatures at bay, that barrier cannot be used to push away those creatures. If you force the barrier against such a creature, you feel a discernible pressure against the barrier. If you continue to apply pressure, you end the spell.
See some of the spell schools do have effects.... So i still have to say , if no effect is listed there nothing displayed, or that can be effected by a Glammer
Post last edited May 19th 2014
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Admin Posts: 833
so the game mechanic would be Spell listed effect if nothing, spell school... see even below the Aura is almost noticeable....when you enter.
AURA OF DOOM
School necromancy [emotion, fear, mind-affecting]; Level cleric 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (powdered bone)
Range personal
Area 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on you
Duration 10 minute/level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
You emanate an almost palpable aura of horror. All non-allies within this spell's area, or that later enter the area, must make a Will save to avoid becoming shaken. A successful save suppresses the effect. Creatures that leave the area and come back must save again to avoid being affected by the effect.
Post last edited May 19th 2014
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Master Poster Posts: 349
The abjuration language referenced above refers to lowering the perception DC by 4. What is the normal perception DC? What is perceived? Is it visual, auditory, tactile, odorous? If it is not visible, does that entail a -20 invisibility modifier?
With regard to the Aura of Doom spell, the caster is not affected by it. Would he know if it were dispelled? Same question as DMRMZ posted at the beginning of this thread.
Again, I don't know what the answer is.
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Active Poster Posts: 88
I think we need to decide on how magic works in this world. Is it bland and tasteless like the book descriptors where the spells are all the same no matter who casts them, and that casters don't really have any connection to their spells other than being the origin of them. Does a caster say a few words, do a few hand gestures, and pull out some dust and then a spell happens. Then yes, no one would be able to tell if their auras had been dispelled. Or is magic more of a living thing, where it can differ from caster to caster, and by what god grants the spells, are the descriptions in the book more of a default setting of the spells in their most base forms. Does casting a spell require an expenditure of willpower on the caster's behalf so that the more he casts the more drawn out he feels. Does a caster gather the energy needed for the spell, shape and form it to their desired specifications, and then release it? If so then a caster would have even a basic active connection to any spell or aura they put up, and would notice if it wasn't available to them. They might require a spellcraft check to notice that the energy isn't there but they would be able to notice.
I liken magic to that which is used in the Dresden Files, here is a link describing the magic in that world, and I love how it works. http://dresdenfiles.wikia.com/wiki/Magic It goes a little more in depth on magic than we might want, but I love how it describes the casting of it.
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Master Poster Posts: 349
I like the idea of special effects attributable to the magic. It's flavorful and imaginative. However, I don't relish the thought of having to develop the descriptions, assigning perceptions DCs, and/or modifiers to stealth, diplomacy, and other game mechanics that would be altered by such special effects. If most spells give off noticeable effects, it would not be unreasonable to think most magic items would, too.
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Active Poster Posts: 88
Its a flavor thing. You don't have to add anything to the visual effects of the spell if you don't want to. What I am pointing out is that magic shouldn't be just pressing a button and waiting for a cool down. Magic is a part of the caster it comes from and should be treated as such. A caster should know if his spell isn't working. He may not notice right away but he could with a spellcraft check to see if his spell is no longer active. He may not know why his spell isn't working but he would notice that the desired effects are not present.
If a player wants to add visual flair to the spells their character casts, it is up to them. They just need to understand that added visual effects can have detrimental hazards as well.
If all spells were the same, we really wouldn't need to use spellcraft to know what was coming, even a basic barbarian could use perception to know what was being cast. Spellcraft is understanding the energies being brought together and what their intent is meant to be. It is also understanding the energies present in an magical item or potion and understanding the intent of it as well.
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Admin Posts: 833
Well to see anything you have to perceive it.
So it back to not what are you notice but can you notice... two different approaches. I used the above Abjuration example to demonstrate that point... so to answer your question it depends on the action of the individual with the aura, and the area they are in ( weather/terrain conditions)... if he standing around well he easier to see 40 foot away then normal (Perception DC4 = 40 foot) or if hiding he subtract 4 from his hidden condition modifier...
Is he aware... no, not unless it has a viable component listed or effect described ( like above) though outside stimuli, he still need to make a perception check if it was allowed...
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Admin Posts: 833
As to magic having style, yes it does, it called spell research, that make the spell your own and allow for personalization... same is true of long swords, want a cool one make one, just knowing how to swing does not make you have a cool blade... see if i let every mage say my spell does x then where the need of spell research.... there have been many variants in D&D for modified spells, the fact a Barbarian can take spell craft is part of the fact it bland by design....
Players have choices, a cool wand or make a signature Magic missile of purple flaming skulls .. ether way the DM did what he needed to do, manage the game economy.... while enabling more creative players....
here an example :
A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one. The cost to research a new spell, and the time required, are left up to GM discretion, but it should probably take at least 1 week and cost at least 1,000 gp per level of the spell to be researched. This should also require a number of Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) checks.
Post last edited May 20th 2014
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Master Poster Posts: 349
This is from the Spellcraft skill description (I added the bold):
You are skilled at the art of casting spells, identifying magic items, crafting magic items, and identifying spells as they are being cast.
Spellcraft is clearly needed to identify a spell as it is being cast in order to counterspell. But it leaves unanswered if spellcraft is necessary to identify a spell (if it's not too obvious) after it has been cast. In any case, it doesn't help us understand whether or to what degree spells are perceptible.
_____
As for perception, let's look at Barkskin, which "toughens a creatures skin." How is this perceived? This is important because it affects which modifiers may apply. If is is visual, no one may notice if the target creature is in pull plate. It also may spoil a creature's attempt at disguise (although the spell description gives no indication it affects the disguise skill). If it is tactile, can the target creature feel it constantly every time it moves, or only when it rubs its skin against another surface? Does it make a rasping sound when rubbed against another surface, which could be heard?
On a related note, Rokr is interested in playing an alchemist, which uses bombs. How much noise does the explosion from a bomb make? Does it make a flash of light? Does it smell, and if so, for how long. Does the odor drift with the wind? Does it cause vibrations in the air and earth--not enough to cause extra damage/structural damage--but enough to be perceived. Will one bomb alert the whold goblin cave system, or is it more limited?
I haven't found much in the game rules for this whole general topic, so we can either continue to hash it out or leave it up to DM discretion.
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Admin Posts: 833
Well, it more of a thread for our group to parse spell effects, and it lets me as a DM get a feel for some players style of play.
This thread is presenting the fact that Pathfinder has allot of grey area on spells, this is because with effect like Barkskin, there would be no change to perception effect, unless a detect magic was active.
So as to the thread point "Does a caster Know"... that still not covered by the system, and is a flavor element of running a game, so it a GM style area.... I just wanted to toss this out for player to see the challenges a DM has with a players statement " I would know my spell is down"......
Really?
How would you know...... it move the statement to a player want...not a Pathfinder player process, mechanism, and or rule
I wanted to thank everyone for their input, this has been a good review.
Post last edited May 21st 2014
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